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Finding Fact in Fiction
18 Comments - 4153 Views
Anyone Can Do It
Submitted By WWDD on 09/07/14
FreeHovind, WWDD, Creation and Evolution 

I’ve mentioned before that creation “science” follows a reversed scientific method. All other fields of science begin with a question, formulate a hypothesis, search for evidence and finally draw a logical conclusion. But if you read the so-called research done by creationists, you’ll notice that they begin with the conclusion. This is not science.

Finding evidence to fit a conclusion is not a difficult task, and is certainly not a form of scientific research. Has anyone read The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown? I wouldn’t consider Brown a spectacular author, but I do give him credit for writing a work of fiction that is so convincing, he almost manages to pass it off as the truth. His book is based on the idea that Jesus was married and had a child, and he provides concrete historical evidence to back up this conclusion.

But Brown is not a scientist, and The Da Vinci Code is not a true story. The fact is that anyone with an average IQ and access to Google could pull off this feat. Sitting here at my computer, I could take any work of fiction and provide you with solid scientific evidence to back it up. I could walk you through the step-by-step process in which the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park came into existence, using my knowledge of animal cloning. Everything from extracting DNA from the fossilized mosquito to implanting the DNA in reptile eggs is more than plausible with our current technology. I could suggest a means by which nuclear waste could alter the DNA of a lizard, turning him into Godzilla. Perhaps the regulatory sequence in the growth hormone operon was damaged, and he just kept getting bigger and bigger?

If I were to write those “science” papers, would you believe that Jurassic Park or Godzilla were true stories? Probably not... and yet that’s what creationists follow so blindly. Just because the Bible can be backed up with science, that doesn’t make it true. Creation science isn’t anymore scientific than a Dan Brown novel. Anything can be backed up with scientific and historical evidence if you try hard enough, and anyone is capable of doing it.

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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
12 hours - 1,085v
Posted 2009/07/15 - 17:30 GMT
I would really like to hear a creationist share their opinion about this. What makes your science any more scientific than the examples I just gave?
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/07/16 - 15:19 GMT
i would like to add a question i have asked before but not been given any answer.

Can anyone supply me with a scientific paper on creationism?
Namely a paper that is written for scientists and not for laymens that all other documents from ICR and discovery institute has.
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
12 hours - 1,085v
Posted 2009/07/17 - 18:15 GMT
It’s funny how it’s the simple questions that take so long to get answered. If my question had been “What evidence is there for a young earth?” I would have 50 posts with links to geological articles and creationist youtube videos by now. But here I am asking the most basic, fundamental question: How is creation science really science at all? And not a single reply. Guess you can’t Google your way to that answer, can you?
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/07/18 - 0:33 GMT
or try typing it in creationwiki for instant ignorant answer!
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
12 hours - 1,085v
Posted 2009/07/26 - 21:52 GMT
Still waiting for that answer...
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
6 days - 8,562v
Posted 2009/12/21 - 21:09 GMT
Well, if what you said is true(that any scientific method starting with the conclusion isnt science), Evolutionists and researchers of the Big Bang are not doing science because they do not research equal amounts for and against their hypothesis; they research a great deal of evidence for their hypothesis while only having a basic understanding, if any, about the other side. therefore, they strongly lean toward the conclusion that their hypothesis is true. They already believe it is true, so they don't "waste their time" researching the other side.
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
5 days - 8,032v
Posted 2009/12/21 - 23:23 GMT
""Well, if what you said is true(that any scientific method starting with the conclusion isnt science),""
 
ehm, the moment you already have our conclusion, you weren''t doing science in the first place.
 
""they research a great deal of evidence for their hypothesis while only having a basic understanding, if any, about the other side.""
 
???what?
 
did you just claimed that the people who come up with hypothesi actually lakc the basic knowledge of their fields?
THEN HOW ARE THEY ABLE TO COME UP WITH DETAILED HYPOTHESI?
 
"" therefore, they strongly lean toward the conclusion that their hypothesis is true.""
 
ooohh, more science conspiracy crap.
Rolf, are you a  scientist, or do you attent a scientific field of study at a university level? i really want to know the answer to that question.
 
"" They already believe it is true, so they don't "waste their time" researching the other side.""
 
the other side???
you mean the null hypothesis?
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
6 days - 8,562v
Posted 2009/12/21 - 23:50 GMT
"ehm, the moment you already have our conclusion, you weren''t doing science in the first place."
 
I was restating what the poster said.
 
"did you just claimed that the people who come up with hypothesi actually lakc the basic knowledge of their fields?
THEN HOW ARE THEY ABLE TO COME UP WITH DETAILED HYPOTHESI?"
 
What i was trying to say was that they research more about how their hypothesis can be true than they research how it could be false; they are biased.
 
"the other side???
you mean the null hypothesis?"
 
By "the other side" i mean evidence against the hypothesis.
 
"Rolf, are you a  scientist, or do you attent a scientific field of study at a university level? i really want to know the answer to that question."
 
I ask you the same question, but to answer yours:
I am a voice with the intent of making you understand my side. After you have understood, I hope that you will think about it and act upon it for the better. That is all you need to know about me. 
 
 
 
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
5 days - 8,032v
Posted 2009/12/22 - 12:24 GMT
"What i was trying to say was that they research more about how their hypothesis can be true than they research how it could be false; they are biased.""
 
....haha..i get it now..
you have no idea how science is done...gr8.
 
you don't search for evidence that supports your hypothesis. you search for evidence that disproves it. if you cannot find that evidence then apparently your hypothesis accurately explains the data.
 
get it? by finding nothing that disproves your hypothisis, you support your hypothesis accuracy.
 
how ever, if you find even 1 thing that does disprove your hypothesis, you have to come up with a new one, or augment the current hypothesis.
 
didn't you learn this in highschool?
 
and YES this is how EVERY scientist has to do science, if they don't, peer review destroys them.
 
""I ask you the same question, but to answer yours:""
 
i did a nature and health (biology, chemistry, physics focused) package in highschool, with history as choice course.
 
and im currently attending "universiteit leiden" for a bachelor in Life science and technology.
 
"I am a voice with the intent of making you understand my side.""
 
you're not the first one, and what you have done so for is only repeat erronious claims..so your probably doign a great job at making us understand your side. because this is the same thign we've been gettign from creationists here for months.
 
"After you have understood, I hope that you will think about it and act upon it for the better."
 
i think you might want to take your own advice.
please get a thorough understandign of what evolution is (don't go to creationist sources), perferrebly at a colage level. and THEN come to critisize it.
and on the same note. the reason we "evolutionists" are here on this forum, is BECAUSE we went and undrstood what your side postulates (in it's many forms). and we are here to speak out at the cognative dissonance they use to support their position.
why? because i''d love to actually see a coherent well supported arguement instead of ignorant dishonest fodder.
 
""That is all you need to know about me. "
 
so you didn't feel like answering the question.
gr8. you're not the first creationists.
 
i'll be reposting this question untill i get and answer though, because it IS relevent when you want to talk a science.
 
 
{Are you a  scientist, or do you attent a scientific field of study at a university level?}
 
» Reply to Comment
Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/12/22 - 15:16 GMT
"you don't search for evidence that supports your hypothesis. you search for evidence that disproves it. if you cannot find that evidence then apparently your hypothesis accurately explains the data.
 
get it? by finding nothing that disproves your hypothisis, you support your hypothesis accuracy."
- Don't forget that it's other scientists duty to citicize your work and infomr you of method flaws, problems and existing data (if your own search for existing data was failing)

Discussion and talking about your work with other scientists who have the same knowledge as you is a key method in well done science.
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
3 days - 4,499v
Posted 2009/12/23 - 2:22 GMT
What i was trying to say was that they research more about how their hypothesis can be true than they research how it could be false; they are biased.
 
Can you back that claim up in any way, shape, or form? Because, to me, it looks like a presumption based on a lack of understanding of the actual practice of science.
 
325 already mentioned the "null hypothesis," which is a fundamental aspect of the scientific discipline and states that (simply put) "claims unaccompanied by evidence are assumed to be false." Bending over backwards with skepticism is essentially the "First Commandment" of science.
 
Obviously there are scientists who don't live up to the standard, no one has ever claimed that practicing science makes one super-human. But without a significant number of scientists who DO respect concepts like the null hypothesis, the fact of the matter is that scientific progress and scientific discoveries simply couldn't occur at the rate that they do.
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
3 days - 4,499v
Posted 2009/12/23 - 2:12 GMT
Evolutionists and researchers of the Big Bang are not doing science because they do not research equal amounts for and against their hypothesis
 
<Morbo>
SCIENCE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!! GOOD NIGHT!!!
</Morbo>
 
Both the Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang theory have already gone through the gauntlet of scientific testing and peer review. There's no point in constantly re-evaluating them, unless there are new discoveries which call those theories into a question - or someone comes up with a competing theory that better-explains the available evidence.
 
Otherwise, the approach you advocate ("research equal amounts for and against their hypothesis") would just be a pointless and counter-productive duplication of effort.
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
6 days - 8,562v
Posted 2009/12/22 - 18:53 GMT
"you don't search for evidence that supports your hypothesis. you search for evidence that disproves it. if you cannot find that evidence then apparently your hypothesis accurately explains the data."
 
I'm saying that they are biased, so they give a pitiful effort in researching how it can be disproved. 
 
 
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
5 days - 8,032v
Posted 2009/12/22 - 19:23 GMT
"I'm saying that they are biased, so they give a pitiful effort in researching how it can be disproved. ""
 
??
did you not understand the response?
 
if your hypothesis is unfalsefiable, it's useless, and will not be made.
 
but if you disagree so hard with this, how about you provide some examples of hypothesi that you think have been effected by bias.
 
 
{Are you a  scientist, or do you attent a scientific field of study at a university level?}
» Reply to Comment
Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
6 days - 8,562v
Posted 2009/12/22 - 23:54 GMT
Confirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs.
For example, if you believe that during a full moon there is an increase in admissions to the emergency room where you work, you will take notice of admissions during a full moon, but be inattentive to the moon when admissions occur during other nights of the month. A tendency to do this over time unjustifiably strengthens your belief in the relationship between the full moon and accidents and other lunar effects.
 
 
http://www.skepdic.com/confirmbias.html
 
I believe that Evolution is also affected by confirmation bias.
 

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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
5 days - 8,032v
Posted 2009/12/23 - 0:04 GMT
"I believe that Evolution is also affected by confirmation bias."
 
yes, yes, we figured that already.
 
but you still have to provide examples like I asked.
and a motive would be nice too.
 

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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
3 days - 4,499v
Posted 2009/12/23 - 2:35 GMT
Confirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs.
 
Indeed... and I'll refrain from pointing out that the definition is also a remarkably accurate description of the approach taken by most creationists and other religious fundamentalists.
 
I believe that Evolution is also affected by confirmation bias.
 
That's all well and good, but you have yet to demonstrate that your belief has any grounding in fact/reality. Unless you can do that, then the null hypothesis applies: the only intellectually-valid response is to assume that your claim is false, as it's unaccompanied by any evidence.
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Re: Finding Fact in Fiction
2 days - 2,415v
Posted 2009/12/23 - 0:56 GMT
wintergreen, you're exactly the man for questioning the work of a biologist and would tell us straight away what's wrong with this work!

http://eebweb.arizona.edu/courses/ecol451_551/readings/coyne_orr_1989.pdf

2 page, 1 line of the rapport tells:
"Any theory of evolution must explain genetic changes within species as well as those producing new species"

On the same page it says:
"Here we bring together information about reproductive isolation, electrophoretic differentiation and biogeography in the genus Drosophila in search for patterns to test and motivate theories of speciation. Our goal is to determine the rate at which reproductive isolation evolves..."

They got theories, in plural, namely several of them. Which one are they biased to do you think?


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